Review: Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton

2 weeks ago 16

Introduction

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpVoigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton on Leica M10

I already reviewed several lenses of Cosina’s lineup of fast and compact f/1.5 lenses. So could I say no to having a closer look at this Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton Type I as well? Of course not! Let’s find out more about this cute lens.

Sample Images

nikon af-s 24mm 1.4 g n ed sony 42mp 61mp a7rii a7riv a7riii a1 a9iii a7rv review resolution sharpness contrast bokeh vignetting coma z6 z7 z8 z9Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
nikon af-s 24mm 1.4 g n ed sony 42mp 61mp a7rii a7riv a7riii a1 a9iii a7rv review resolution sharpness contrast bokeh vignetting coma z6 z7 z8 z9Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6

You can find most of the sample pictures in this article in full resolution here.

Specifications/Version History

Cosina made plenty of 35mm M-mount lenses, but this is the first one as fast as f/1.5. It comes in two versions, Type I which is made from aluminum and painted matte black (the version being reviewed here) and Type II which is made from brass and comes in glossy black paint and silver. The Type II versions are about 100g heavier.

The full specifications of Type I are:

    • Diameter: 53 mm
    • Field of view: 61.7° (diagonally)
    • Length: 36 mm
    • Weight: 192g (without hood and caps)
    • Filter Diameter: 39 mm
    • Number of Aperture Blades: 12 (straight)
    • Elements/Groups: 9/6
    • Close Focusing Distance: 0.5 m
    • Maximum Magnification: 1:11.3 (measured)
    • Mount: Leica M
    • Released: 2023

buy from amazon.com | amazon.de | ebay.com | ebay.de | B&H for about $799 (affiliate links)

Disclosure

A good friend and long time reader lend me this lens for a few weeks. Thanks a lot!

Handling/Build Quality

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpVoigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton

This Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton is part of Cosina’s “Vintage” line. It should be noted it got the “Vintage” designation because of its look, not because the pictures you take with it will look like they have been taken with an old lens, if you are looking for that then “Classic” is the term you need to look for in the Voigtlander portfolio.

The lens looks and feels really solid, all the markings are engraved and filled with paint, the focus ring has perfect resistance and turns about 120° from the minimum focus distance of 0.5 m to infinity. Unlike many Laowa lenses and also the Thypoch Simera lenses this one sadly does not feature a click-stop at the 0.7 m mark.

The aperture ring has equidistantly spaced half-stop click stops and feels very tightly assembled. It turns ~110° from f/1.5 to f/16. Unlike the aperture rings of most of the other VM lenses this one has a bit of a mushy feel to it though.

Rangefinder blockage

Without a hood attached this lens only shows very little rangefinder blockage. The owner was first using a Haoge vented hood that leads to noticeable viewfinder blockage.

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpVoigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton with Haoge hood attached

As soon as it became available he replaced it with the Tahusa hood which I think is a great match to this lens and also doesn’t lead to increased rangefinder blockage. I am also using a hood made by that manufacturer on my Voigtländer VM 40mm 1.4 Nokton.

Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton with Tahusa hood on Leica M10

I have to admit that without the hood the lens looks a bit “unfinished” as the shiny distinct front bayonet actually looks similar to the rear bayonet.

35mm 1.4 Summilux-M Asph FLE MKII mark 2 leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica 35mm 1.4 FLE MKII | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 III Nokton

The Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton is the smallest lens as fast as this with a modern optical design. It is noticeably smaller than the Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II and also the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III.

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpVoigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton via Metabones Adapter on Sony A7rII

When using the Techart LM-EA9 adapter to turn this into an autofocus lens the AF works very well in the central part of the frame but not outside of it – as is the case with most lenses.

Vignetting

Light falloff

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mp

f/1.53.5 EV
f/2.02.7 EV
f/2.82.0 EV
f/4.0 - f/161.7 EV

The Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton shows high vignetting figures – not surprising considering how small it is. What is interesting is that it actually vignettes less than the noticeably bigger Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE.

The vignetting figures are also almost identical to the Voigtländer VM 28mm 1.5 Nokton.

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpVoigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton

It is recommended to have a look at this article first to get an idea how this brightness graph works.

Optical vignetting

Fast lenses usually show a significant amount of optical vignetting. Without going too much into technical details optical vignetting leads to the truncation of light circles towards the borders of the frame.
In the center of the frame almost every lens will render a perfect circle, but only lenses with very low optical vignetting will keep this shape in the corners.
So in the following comparison we move from the center (left) to the extreme corner (right) and see how the shape of the light circle changes.

Leica M10 | 0.5 m focus distance

I did shoot all three lenses side by side, they were set to 0.5 m and with focusing at a target situated at exactly 0.5 m distance from camera it was ensured the focus distance is actually the same, so the size of the circles is directly comparable.

Unsurprisingly the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton shows a high amount of optical vignetting. Interestingly the noticeably bigger Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II performs just the same and we also see the difference between f/1.4 and f/1.5 is irrelevant. The Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4 also shows a similar amount of optical vignetting, but unlike these three lenses here it features a high number of rounded aperture blades.

All these lenses make use of aspherical elements. Here the polishing of the Leica looks best to me, as it shows the least obtrusive onion ring structures.

Sharpness

Focus Shift

Sony A7rII | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 50% crops

With some lenses the point of optimal focus shifts on stopping down. Here I see a tiny bit of focus shift between f/1.5 and f/2.0, but not nearly enough to get worried about, as the actual target doesn’t drop out of the focal plane.

infinity (24mp Leica M10, 42mp Sony A7rII)

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/11

On the Leica M10 I see a bit of glow at f/1.5 as well as a noticeable midzone drop and okayish corners. By f/2.8 it already looks good everywhere, the best performance is achieved at f/8.0.

The Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II has a similar midzone dip but slightly better corners at wider apertures. From f/5.6 they look pretty similar. In this category the Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4 shows the best performance, as the midzone is mostly gone from f/2.0.

On the Sony A7rII with its thick filter stack the corners look worse at wider apertures – as was to be expected – and the midzone dip is also slightly worse.

portrait distance 1.0 m (24mp Leica M10, 24mp Sony A7III)

positions of crops in the frame

I refocused for every shot and aperture to get the best possible result at different locations in the frame (center, inner midframe and outer midframe).
The circle of the dollar bill is more or less the size of a human eye.

We will be looking at 100% crops from the 24mp Sony A7III and the Leica M10. Both cameras do not have an anti aliasing filter in front of the sensor. Focus distances was 1.0 m.

Leica M10 <—> Sony A7III

Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 100% crops

The performance at f/1.5 is very good in the center, good in the inner midframe area but not so great in the outer midframe area – a situation very similar to the other recent Voigtländer VM lenses.

Differences between Leica and Sony are not huge here, but the lens does look better in the outer midframe area on the Leica as was to be expected. In the center at f/2.0 it looks better on Sony which is due to setting precise focus on Sony cameras is noticeably easier.

What about the competition? The VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III performs very similar here at shared apertures. The Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II and The Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4 perform better, most likely thanks to their floating elements designs.

close 0.5 m (42mp Sony A7rII)

Sony A7rII | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 100% crops from center

Despite the lack of a floating elements design this Voigtländer 35mm 1.5 does pretty well at its minimum focus distance of 0.5 m.

The Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II actually does a bit worse at its maximum aperture – despite featuring a floating elements design – but it also focuses slightly closer.

Flare resistance

As always evaluating flare is a complex matter since you can get any lens to look bad if you push it hard enough and a slight change of scenario can affect results a lot.

That being said, most of the recent Voigtländer lenses have been showing a great performance in this category, e.g. the VM 28mm 1.5 Nokton, VM 50mm 1.2 Nokton, the VM 35mm 1.7 Ultron and also the slower VM 28mm 2.0 Ultron MK II as well as the VM 28mm 2.8 Color-Skopar. Only the VM 50mm 1.5 Nokton MK II was a bit of a disappointment.

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5

At the maximum aperture it is hard to catch artefacts and also the contrast stays on a high level, even with strong point light sources directly in the frame.

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/11

Stopped down I managed to create a small green ghost in these staged scenarios, but the light source needs to be in a very specific spot for that. In the field I did not encounter any issues with this lens.

A much better performance than what I have seen from the Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II and the Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4.

Coma

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 100% crops from extreme corner

The performance in this category was a bit of a positive surprise. There is clearly coma visible at f/1.5 to f/2.0, but the artefacts are smaller than those of most other similarly fast M-mount lenses including the Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II and the Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4. The Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III shows a similar performance at shared apertures.

Distortion

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/4.0

The Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III had a bit of a nasty wavy distortion pattern and also here we see a not perfectly uniform pincushion distortion. A profile in Lightroom isn’t available yet, but dialing in -2 does an okay job for now.

The distortion is still low and I did not correct it for any of the sample pictures.

Bokeh

nikon af-s 24mm 1.4 g n ed sony 42mp 61mp a7rii a7riv a7riii a1 a9iii a7rv review resolution sharpness contrast bokeh vignetting coma z6 z7 z8 z9Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5

Whenever dealing with a fast wide angle lens, the performance in this category is very important to me, so let’s have a closer look.

Close Distance

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
nikon af-s 24mm 1.4 g n ed sony 42mp 61mp a7rii a7riv a7riii a1 a9iii a7rv review resolution sharpness contrast bokeh vignetting coma z6 z7 z8 z9Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5

At close distances there is hardly anything for me to complain about: the Voigtländer renders a smooth and undistracting bokeh. Thanks to good contrast – also at shorter distances – the subject also stands out nicely from the background.

Mid Distance

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5

At mid distances I also find the rendering of this lens very pleasing – we do see the effect the strong optical vignetting has on foliage in the background though.

Long Distance

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5

Now to be honest, I was a bit afraid how the lens will perform at longer focus distances, because I wasn’t super happy with the 28mm Voigtländer offerings here. Interestingly this lens performs better than expected and field curvature seems to be less of an issue here – similar to the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III and even the Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4 with its floating elements design.

Luckily I had this Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton and the latest Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II at the same time, so I did some side by side comparisons.

Compared to: Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II

Caution:
As I did these comparisons on the Leica M10 the camera introduced forced vignetting and color cast corrections to the pictures taken with the Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II, in a fair comparison the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton actually shows less vignetting.

Scene 1: Forest Close Distance

Scene 2: Forest Transition

Scene 3: Forest Mid Distance

Scene 4: Forest Long Distance

Scene 5: Forest Long Distance Backlit

Scene 6: City Long Distance

Scene 7: City Lights Mid Distance

Observations

What can we learn from these comparisons? Generally the Leica draws a way more nervous and distracting bokeh. This is especially visible in the first three forest scenes but also in the nightly city scene.

Now scene four is an interesting one as it showcases the different field curvature shapes. The Voigtländer’s midframe areas look more out of focus, but the corners are pulled back into the focal plane. So in this scene I call it a draw and same is true for scene six.

My personal favorite 35mm lenses with regards to bokeh rendering are the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III, the Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4, this Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton, the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.7 Ultron and then the Zeiss ZM 35mm 1.4 – in that order.

Sunstars

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 33% crops from center

Like many of the recent Voigtländer lenses also this 35mm 1.5 features 12 straight aperture blades, which yield very distinct suntars from f/2.0 to f/11.
If you want to know more about sunstar rendering of different lenses have a look at this article.

Chromatic aberration

lateral

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/11 | 100% crops from corner

This lens shows only minimal lateral CA.

longitudinal

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 50% crops

We see here a very typical performance for a fast 35mm lens with rather strong fringing at the maximum aperture that still doesn’t completely clear up when stopped down to f/2.8. The Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MK II shows a very similar performance at shared apertures.

Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | 100% crops

Purple fringing is pretty strong at f/1.5, still visible at f/2.0, but fully gone at f/2.8.

Conclusion

good
  • bokeh
  • sharpness (mostly)
  • flare resistance
  • nice sunstars
  • build quality/handling
  • size/weight
average
  • CA correction
  • coma correction
  • distortion
not good
  • high vignetting

When this Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton was released in 2023, I wasn’t super interested in it, because I already had the Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III, which is pretty much the same thing – just a bit faster, bigger heavier.

Many M-mount users highly value compact and low weight lenses though and here this 35mm 1.5 Nokton is a real winner – especially the Type I aluminium version. At 192g it is the same weight as the Voigtländer VM 40mm 1.4 Nokton with its much simpler “Classic” optical design and it is noticeably smaller than the Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE and the Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4.

Generally, in terms of optical performance, Cosina managed to create a very compelling lineup of these compact f/1.5 lenses. There are some noteworthy differences, but you can clearly tell they follow the same design language and in my opinion they are also a perfect fit to the M-system – in many cases a better fit than Leica’s own lenses.

buy from amazon.com | amazon.de | ebay.com | ebay.de | B&H for about $799 (affiliate links)

Alternatives

I already reviewed a lot of fast 35mm lenses for M-mount. You can find all their reviews here. These are some popular alternatives to have a closer look at:

Voigtlander VM 35mm 1.2 Nokton III:
In most of the categories this lens performs very similar, the main differences are the faster maximum aperture and the bigger size as well as the higher weight. This is also my personal choice when it comes to fast 35mm lenses for the Leica M-mount.
Those that care more about small size and lower weight than a faster maximum aperture may prefer this f/1.5 version though.
buy from amazon.com | ebay.com | ebay.de | B&H for about $949 (affiliate links)

Voigtlander VM 35mm 1.7 Ultron:
This lens has already been discontinued and somewhat replaced by this Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton, but this is still a really well balanced lens with better off center sharpness at portrait distances and less longitudinal CA – should you care about those things. Some people really hate its knurled focus ring though.
buy from ebay.com | ebay.de for ~500$ (affiliate links)

Zeiss ZM 35mm 1.4:
The last entry of the Zeiss ZM lineup. Very high contrast, better performance at wider apertures but too big and heavy for most M-mount users.
buy from amazon.com | amazon.de | ebay.com | ebay.deB&H starting at 1600$/1600€ (affiliate links)

Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MKII:
I used both these lenses side by side and compared them in most of the categories. The difference in maximum aperture is completely irrelevant and the only category where I see the Leica ahead is off center sharpness at portrait distances at f/1.4 to f/2.0. As this Voigtländer lens is smaller, lighter, performs better in most categories and only costs a fraction, I don’t see a lot of reasons to go for the Leica lens.
buy from ebay.com | ebay.de | B&H (affiliate links) for $5395

Leica 35mm 1.4 FLE MKI:
The performance of this predecessor of the aforementiond lens is pretty much the same. If you don’t care about the improved minimum focus distance – e.g. because you are using an M-mount camera without liveview – you can just as well use this older version.
buy from amazon.com | ebay.comebay.de | B&H for $5195 (new) or starting at $3000 (used) (affiliate links)

Thypoch Simera 35mm 1.4:
This lens’ optical diagram looks very similar to that of the aforementiond Leica lenses, but actually I found this Thypoch lens to perform better than the “original” in some categories, especially bokeh but also vignetting. I am not a real fan of this lens’ handling though.
buy from ebay.com | B&H (affiliate links) for $699

Sample Images

voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
nikon af-s 24mm 1.4 g n ed sony 42mp 61mp a7rii a7riv a7riii a1 a9iii a7rv review resolution sharpness contrast bokeh vignetting coma z6 z7 z8 z9Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
nikon af-s 24mm 1.4 g n ed sony 42mp 61mp a7rii a7riv a7riii a1 a9iii a7rv review resolution sharpness contrast bokeh vignetting coma z6 z7 z8 z9Leica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/5.6
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5
voigtländer vm 35mm 1.5 nokton leica m10 m11 m6 review contrast sharpness bokeh vignetting coma summilux 42mp 61mp 24mpLeica M10 | Voigtländer VM 35mm 1.5 Nokton | f/1.5

You can find most of the sample pictures in this article in full resolution here.

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My name is Bastian and I am your expert here when it comes to ultra wide angle lenses, super fast portrait lenses (ranging from a 50mm f/0.95 to a 200mm f/1.8) and I also have reviewed way too many 35mm lenses. Don't ask me anything about macro or wildlife shooting though.

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